Age of Abraham
and the flood of Jordan


Flood of Jordan

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: KJV-points to consider

>CQ> PMFBI, but one of the wrinkles the Correctors seems to continue to have missed in the KJV, since before the 1872 edition, up to and including the present, is the discrepency presented in Jos.24:2-4.

>CQ> In the giving of Abraham's immediate family-tree, in the KJV, it is depicted as if Abraham and His fathers were in existence prior to the Flood and was a contemporary of his own Ancestor Noah, aboard the Ark.

No, Noah and the ark are not mentioned in Joshua 24. The children of Israel cross THE FLOOD OF JORDAN to enter the land. They were on "the other side of the flood" before they passed through Jordan:

"And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)" (Joshua 3:15)

The expression, "the flood", is prophetically connected with that expression in Revelation 12:15,16 cross-referenced with Job 40:23.

"Behold he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not; he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth." (Job.40;23)

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." (Revelation 12:15)

>CQ> Since only Eight People survived the Flood, for Abraham to have been Alive and Well on both sides

Sides? The flood of Noah had no sides, since it covered the "whole" earth. A river/stream flood has sides because a river has sides. Joshua was prophesying to the children of Israel at SHECHEM on THIS SIDE Jordan, not the other side of the flood of Jordan.

>CQ> Other renditions of these passages, in the various compilations of Scripture clarifies this by the use of the name of the body of Water that separated Chaldea from Canaan, where Abraham resided on the other side, and had to cross to reach the Land promised his descendants by God.

Ur of the Chaldeas is on this side of Euphrates, not the other side. Plainly, the text in Joshua 24:2-4 (and 24:14! :) is referring to the flood of Jordan that the children of Israel crossed through.

(Please see next message. Thanks. :)


Age of Abraham

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: KJV-points to consider

>CQ> In the cronology of Abraham's life as depicted in the KJV, there is the question of his Age upon his departure from Haran, based upon the age of Terah at the time of Abraham's birth and the death of Terah.

There is no question of Abram's age when he departed from Haran: "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him; and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran." (Gen.12:4)

There's no question as to how old Terah was when Abram departed: "And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran." - "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran." (Gen.11:26 & 11:32)

So, adding Abram's 75 to Terah's 70, Terah would have to have been 145 when Abram departed, and Abram/Abraham would have been about 135 years old when Terah died, and HE (Abraham) removed HIM (Terah) from Haran to the burial plot at SHECHEM/Sychem that Abraham bought from the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem, as is evident:

"Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell." (Acts 7:4)
(HE=Abraham - HIM="his father"! :)

"So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem." (Acts 7:15,16)

Since Terah died when Abraham was about 135, then Terah's death would be a year or so before Abraham's wife Sarah died in Gen.23:2. Look at the end of the previous chapter! Abraham was able to BEHOLD his brother Nahor's children at Haran where Nahor, Terah's son dwelt.

Again? In Gen.24, when Abraham was going to send his servant to get a bride for Isaac from his Haran area kindred: "And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?" (Gen.24:5)

AGAIN! That means that Isaac attended the funeral of Terah too, or had otherwise visited that land BEFORE! Isaac was 40 when he wed Rebekah, about 5 years after Terah died. Here's the chronology--

>1878AA Terah born (AA=years from creation, "After Adam" :)
>1948AA Abram born (Terah 70)
>2023AA Abram 75, departs from Haran
>2048AA Isaac born (Abram/Abraham 100, Terah 170)
>2083AA Terah died at 205 (Abraham 135, Isaac 35)
>2085AA Sarah died at 127 (Abraham 137, Isaac 37)
>2088AA Isaac(40) wed Rebekah(Abraham's brother's grand-daughter)

Remember that Jesus is the Lord and receive the word of God as it is in truth, the word of God, and not the word of man. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your heart in faith. Amen. --Richard


(1) Age of Abraham

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: Abraham

>>RC> "And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran." [...] (Gen.11:26]

>CQ> You're both misreading the verse. It doesn't say Terah lived 70 years and begot Abraham. It says Terah lived 70 years and begot Abraham, Nahor,and Haran.

(The Author's version says "Abram", not "Abraham" as you claimed. :)

>CQ> Unless these sons were triplets the verse is simply saying that Terah began having these three sons at this age.

So when he was 70 he "began" to have Abram and 2 other sons as well. There is less survival possibilities with triplets than with single births, so Haran's early death might have been due in part to that. Nahor married Haran's daughter Milcah, so you might argue that Haran was older than Nahor, but with so many close-kin unions, it may just be due to a shortage of woman because the "sons of God" that were taking "wives of all which they chose" before the flood, "and also after that", were still grabbing up all available "fair" women. (The "strange flesh" unions that produced "giants" was still going on in the days of Moses; and David was almost killed by a giant.)

The fact that Haran had children before Abram cannot be used as an indication that Haran was older, since Abram and Sarai were ALSO trying to have children, but without success, since she was BARREN.

>CQ> It doesn't say that Abraham was the first. You're assuming Abraham was born first because Abraham is mentioned first.

Gen.11:31 says that, "Terah took Abram...Lot...Sarai..." If Nahor was the birthright son, why was he not taken with Terah? Terah went to Charran, but Nahor dwelt in the "city of Nahor", which, according to the Mari tablets, was located generally southeast of Harran.

>CQ> There is no basis for asserting Abraham was the first-born ("birth-right) son of Terah. It's equally possible Haran was the first-born in accordance with Gen 11:27.

In Gen.11:27p, the order is also: "Abram, Nahor, and Haran". The fact that Haran was the 1st of the 3 to have children is not proof he was older. Abram and (barren) Sarai were certainly trying, and Nahor delayed marriage until Milcah was grown. Between Shem and Terah, men were having children in their 30's. Terah was born when his father was 29. (Rapid generations to re-populate the earth.) Then a slow down, with Terah at 70, Abraham at 86, Isaac at 60, and Jacob past 80 having 13 children, (another baby boom! the youngest, Benjamin managed to beget 10 children while still in his teens! :)

If you claim Abram was NOT born when Terah was 70, but 130, then you have Abram being born after the death of Peleg; but if born when Terah was 70, Abram's call "OUT of Ur" would be within the "days of Peleg" when families/nations were being "divided in the earth". Remember that Jesus is the Lord and receive the love of the truth. Grace be to them that love the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. --Richard


Flood of Jordan

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: Abraham

>>>CQ2> ...Jos.24:2-4.
>>>CQ2> In the giving of Abraham's immediate family-tree, in the KJV, it is depicted as if Abraham and His fathers were in existence prior to the Flood and was a contempory of his own Ancestor Noah, aboard the Ark.

>>RC> The children of Israel crossed THE FLOOD OF JORDAN to enter the land.

>>RC> And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)" (Joshua 3:15)

>CQ> Josh 24:2 KJV "flood" is simply the Hebrew word for "river." It has nothing to do with a "flood" as "flood" is typically understood.

The hebrew word "nahar" is translated as "flood" in Job 22:16, in reference to the Noahic DELUGE: "Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:" (Job.22:16) Even a "river", when it overflows, is a flood. Israel didn't cross Jordan in the dry season, but on the 10th of Abib, in THE FLOOD season, when Jordan overflowed all his banks at the TIME OF HARVEST.

>>RC> The expression, "the flood", is prophetically connected with that expression in Revelation 12:15,16 cross-referenced with Job 40:23. "Behold he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not; he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth." (Job.40:23) "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." (Revelation 12:15)

>CQ> Again, Rev 12:15 is simply the Greek word for "river."

(An OVERFLOWING "river" is a FLOOD, friend. Be not ignorant. :)

>>RC> Joshua was prophesying to the children of Israel at SHECHEM on THIS SIDE Jordan, not the other side of the flood of Jordan

>CQ> Presumably this is referring to the other side of the Euphrates River, that is, Mesopotamia where Abraham started out.

>>RC> Ur of the Chaldeas is on this side of Euphrates, not the other side.

>CQ> That's correct but Mesopotamia is generally located across the///
[CQ text was truncated...]

Whatever. Plainly, the text in Joshua 24:2-4,14,15 is referring to THE FLOOD OF JORDAN that the children of Israel crossed through. Grace be to them that love the truth for Jesus' sake. Amen. --Richard

(P.S. Read message after this before considering any replies. :)


(2) Flood of Jordan

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: Flood of jordan

>>RC> The children of Israel crossed THE FLOOD OF JORDAN to enter the land. They were on "the other side of the flood" before they passed through Jordan: "And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)"

>CQ> Where is the Scriptural support for the Flooding of the Jordon River?

What does "OVERFLOWETH all his banks" mean, if not a FLOOD?

>>RC> Sides? The flood of Noah had no sides, since it covered the "whole" earth. A river/stream flood has sides because a river has sides.

>CQ> "The Other side" in this context refers to Time.

The expressions "this side" and "other side" in Joshua usually refer to the two sides of the JORDAN river, as we see in the CONTEXT of Joshua 24 in verse 8p-- "which dwelt on the other side Jordan;" And the fact that Israel "went over Jordan" (v.11p) is obvious too.

SHECHEM! The first place Abram came to in the land of Canaan. Plainly he followed the same major trade-route from the Haran area that his grandson Jacob followed when returning to Canaan. Come on, hop on a camel (Buckle up, it's the law! :) and let's JOURNEY from Haran through Tadmor(Palmyra) to Damascus (where Abram's servant Eliezer was from :) and lo, and behold, what saith yonder signpost?

THE KING'S HIGHWAY! The world's most famous highway, running along the trans-jordan ("other side Jordan" :) plateau to Ezion-gaber at the Red sea, but we'll only set our "face toward the mount Gilead", like Jacob, and take the Shechem turnoff near the river Jabbok, which joins Jordan at "the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan" (a good place for waters to be cut off for Jordan crossings! :)

Abram crossed the Jordan and began to SOJOURN in Canaan, when? YES! the "selfsame day" 430 years before the children of Israel left Egypt, on the 15th day of the 1st month(Abib), the RAINY SEASON when Jordan OVERFLOWED all his banks all the time of HARVEST, the same month of the year the children of Israel came from the other side of the flood of Jordan into the land of promise.

In SHECHEM, the LORD said to Israel: "And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac." (Joshua 24:3! :) He "led" him, by the way, to Shechem, to the plain of Moreh at the foot of Gerazim (the mount of BLESSING! :)

Well, bless the LORD, O my soul! O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! ("Jacob's well" is indeed "deep"! :)

Grace be to them that cherish the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. --Richard


(CQ1) Abraham's age

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: Age of abraham 1/2

>>>CQ> In the cronology of Abraham's life as depicted in the KJV, there is the question of his Age upon his departure from Haran, based upon the age of Terah at the time of Abraham's birth and the death of Terah.

>>RC> There is no question of Abram's age when he departed from Haran: "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him; and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran." (Gen.12:4)

>CQ> This was after Terah's death, and Abraham had already Lived 135 years, unless 60 years of it was spent in suspended Animation.

Genesis 12:4 is recorded after the place were Terah's death is recorded, but that does not mean Terah was dead when Abram was only 75 years old and "departed out of Haran." It is evident that "Terah lived seventy years and begat Abram" and 75 years later, when Terah would have been 70+75=145 years old, Abram departed out of Haran.

>>RC> So, adding Abram's 75 to Terah's 70, Terah would have to have been 145 when Abram departed, and Abram/Abraham would have been about 135 years old when Terah died, and HE (Abraham) removed HIM (Terah) from Haran to the burial plot at SHECHEM/Sychem that Abraham bought from the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem, as is evident:

>CQ> Verse 12, starts after Terah's death and Abraham's departure doesn't began any earlier, he was 135 at this time, unless you failed to remove your shoes so all of your digits could be counted.

(Shoes? [grin] I'm posting from the shoeless state of Kentucky! :)

Adam "died" in Genesis 5:5; does that mean he was dead before Seth "begat Enos" in Gen.5:6, just because his death is mentioned before that next verse? Of course not. Moses took the spotlight off Terah at the end of chapter 11, and plainly focused in on Abram in the next chapter. Abram/Abraham's death is recorded in Gen.25:8, and Jacob's birth is not mentioned until Gen.25:26, but simple arithmetic informs us that with Jacob being born when Isaac was 60, and Isaac being born when Abraham was 100, then Abraham was 160 when Jacob was born, and Abraham died at 175 when Jacob was 15.

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(CQ2) Abraham's age

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Now we have a Problem, my bible states that Abraham's reason for needing a burial site was because of the death of his wife Sarah, and the plot was purchased from the Sons of Heth, after Sarah had lived 127 years. (Gen.23:1-20) KJV.

The "cave" where Sarah was buried was (is) in "Hebron" (Gen.23:19p). There was a separate burial area in SHECHEM where Abraham purchased a sepulchre (Acts 7:16), and later, Jacob purchased the parcel of ground (Josh.24:32), which was where the bones of Joseph were buried.

>CQ> Now before we go any farther with this topic, lets insure that we're utilizing the Same Text, due to the fact that nothing you've posted is supported by the KJV...

All the Bible quotes in my message were from the pure word of God, the Authorized King James Version, as anyone can plainly see.

>>RC> "Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell." (Acts 7:4) (HE=Abraham - HIM="his father"! :)

>CQ> Your interpretation of this 4th verse, shows that you have totally ignored the 5th verse ,in order to make your point.

There's nothing in the 5th verse that effects the above explanation.

>CQ> So Let me Ask what you are apparently avoiding, Did G-D make a promise to Terah? If your answer is "No", then the same [HE] in the fifth verse is the same person in the 4th, and therefore The Second "He" in the 4th verse is G-D, that removes Abraham. This is what the 5th verse clarifies, the Person removed was made a promise that He , via his Seed(Isaac) would inherit the Land that would be shown Him, by [He] that was doing the Removing. Terah was no-longer in the picture.

No, verse 4 is a complete sentence. The "he" and "his father" refer to Abraham and Terah, so the "he" and "him" are likewise, and that agrees with the fact that Abram was 75 when he departed of his own free will from Haran; not removed/carried/transported unwillingly as the "fathers" of Ac.7:15p were "carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem." (Ac.7:16p)

>CQ> Abraham, as Terah's Birthright Son Inherited his father's estate...

To the contrary, instead of inheriting his "father's house", the Lord had commanded him: "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee". And he departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him. He didn't wait until his father's house ceased with Terah's death.

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(CQ3) Abraham's age

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> As stated earlier, Abraham had no need for a burial plot, until the death of his wife Sarah.

Then why did he buy a sepulchre in Shechem/Sychem if he didn't need a burial place there? Sichem is quite-a-many miles north of Hebron, on this side Jordan about mid-way between Galilee and the Dead sea.

>CQ> Then, why would Abraham wish to bury Terah in an Alien Land anyway, when Nahor was there in Padam Aram and could of interred his father on his own Turf, with the remains of his son Haran?

(Why were the bones of Joseph and the remains of the other FATHERS "removed" out of Egypt and buried in Shechem/Sychem? :)

The land Abraham came out of would be considered an "Alien Land", not the promised land where he dwelt. Observe in Genesis 11:31 that Terah had intended to "go into the land of Canaan" also! For some reason, Terah was not able to continue on to the promised land, and like Joseph, he may have requested to be buried in Sichem/Shechem, the first place the Lord appeared to Abram in Canaan (Gen.12:7). (Abraham did buy a sepulchre there for some reason! :)

>CQ> It was after the death of his father, that Abraham was commanded by God to depart his homeland and his Kindred, Living or Dead.

No, it was "when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran" that the God of glory appeared unto Abram[Abraham] and commanded him to "Get thee out...", etc. (Acts 7:2,3)

>>RC> "So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem." (Acts 7:15,16)

>CQ> And these people were killed and Abraham's money taken back, by his great grandsons, right? (Gen.34:25-29)

There is no specific mention of "Abraham's money" there, but it says they took "all their wealth" so IF his money was in Shechem's house, instead of with one of the other "sons of Emmor", you may be right.

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(CQ4) Abraham's age

From a message by a Curious Questioner--

>>RC> Since Terah died when Abraham was about 135, then Terah's death would be a year or so before Abraham's wife Sarah died in Gen.23:2. Look at the end of the previous chapter! Abraham was able to BEHOLD his brother Nahor's children at Haran where Nahor, Terah's son dwelt.

>CQ> Why did you delete the part that Said, "And it came to pass, after these things, [THAT IT WAS TOLD ABRAHAM], Behold, Milcah has also borne children to your brother Nahor"?

No, friend, I did not "delete" such, but rather, I requested that you LOOK "at the end of the previous chapter!" Read it for yourself! Plainly Abraham was told to "BEHOLD" his brother's children, which apparently were before his eyes. (Don't overlook the obvious. :)

>CQ> Nahor is still back in Padam Aram, there's no scriptural support for your allegation that Abraham personally ever returned to Ur or Haran after he departed, in obedience to the Word of G-D.

No, I did not allege he "ever returned to Ur" as you alleged. And Terah took "Abram...Lot...and Sarai" from Ur to Haran. No mention of Nahor going with them to Haran. Nahor apparently dwelt in another part of Syria, in "the city of Nahor". (My statement above, that Nahor dwelt in Haran, seems to be in error.) And it is obvious that Abraham, after entering the promised land, left that land on more than one occasion. He went to Egypt in Genesis 12. He went back into Syria, near Damascus, to rescue Lot and others, who were taken captive in Genesis 14.

When Abraham died, he wasn't buried before word reached Ishmael in the wilderness, so he could come to the funeral, and both "Isaac and Ishmael buried" Abraham their father, in the place where he desired to be buried, at his wife Sarah's side. Likewise, Esau was summoned from Seir when Isaac died (or was on his death bed) and Isaac was buried by "his sons Esau and Jacob" in the same cave as Abraham and Sarah in the Hebron area.

And Jacob (Gen.49:29) plainly told his sons to bury him in the same cave, where he had also buried his wife Leah; and the sons of Jacob "removed" him from the alien land of Egypt and carried him into the promised land for burial. Why do you think it strange that Abraham would be summoned at the death of Terah, so both Terah's sons, Abraham and Nahor could bury him in the land he desired to be in? and in Gen.11:31p Terah intended to "go into the land of Canaan".

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(CQ5) Abraham's age

From a message by a Curious Questioner--

>>RC> Again? In Gen.24, when Abraham was going to send his servant to get a bride for Isaac from his Haran area kindred: "And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?" (Gen.24:5)

>>RC> AGAIN! That means that Isaac attended the funeral of Terah too, or had otherwise visited that land BEFORE! Isaac was 40 when he wed Rebekah, about 5 years after Terah died.

>CQ> It does, or is this just more of your Speculation, as to what must of happened, based on your faulty comprehension of Elizabethan English?

The Bible is modern Jacobean english, not archaic Elizabethan.

>CQ> READ MY FINGERS; "Again", has nothing to do with Isaac in this verse.

So when it says "thy son again" your fingers say another "son" than Isaac is meant? (Are you sure you weren't typing with your toes? :)

>CQ>RC> 2083AA Terah died at 205 (Abraham 135, Isaac 35)

>CQ> Isaac wasn't born yet.

Since Isaac was born when Abraham was 100, then it stands to reason that when Abraham was 135, Isaac would be 35, as it is written. Terah was 70 when he begat Abram, so Abraham was 135 when Terah died at the age of 205, a "year or so" before Sarah died.

Here's the chronology again, with *additions as msg.space allows--

>1878AA Terah born (AA=years from creation, "After Adam" :)
>1948AA Abram born (Terah 70)
>1996AA*Peleg died (Abram 48)
>2006AA*Noah died at age of 950 (Abram 58)
>2023AA Abram 75, departs from Haran (*Terah 145)
>2034AA*Ishmael born of Hagar (Abram 86)
>2048AA Isaac born of Sarah (Abram/Abraham 100, Terah 170)
>2083AA Terah died at 205 (Abraham 135, Isaac 35)
>2085AA Sarah died at 127 (Abraham 137, Isaac 37)
>2088AA Isaac(40) wed Rebekah(Abraham's brother's grand-daughter)
>2108AA*Jacob & Esau BORN (Abraham 160, Isaac 60)
>2123AA*Abraham died at age of 175 (Isaac 75, Jacob 15, SHEM 565! :)
>* (22nd generation Jacob contemporary with 11th generation Shem! :)
>2158AA*Shem died at age of 600 (Isaac 110, Jacob 50, EBER 435! :)
>2197AA*Eber died at age of 474 (Isaac 149, Jacob 89, ENOCH 1575! :)

Remember that Jesus is the Lord and receive the love of the truth.
Grace be to your heart, in love for Jesus' sake. Amen. --Richard


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